BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....

Subject: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:18 PM

Yup, here we go again... The Repubs have stated that, unlike Bush, Cheney is unflapable, will remain cool as a cucumber and defeat John Edwards in their Tuesday night debate...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM

Bobert, would you stop with this absurd pattern of stating something that has not yet occurred as though it has occurred? It gives me heart palpitations! In t he Bush Kerry Debate#1, it was a downright falsehood!! Whyja do dat sheeit, man??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:23 PM

Maybe Cheney's pacemaker will short circuit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:25 PM

Sorry, Amos.... I can't help myself.... Plus, I thought I'd get a jump on the Repub spinmasters...

Firgive me...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:28 PM

Edwards is going to prove much faster on his feet and less Owned by Satan than that fat old white guy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:31 PM

Edwards may not have a chance to be fast on his feet. I've read a rumour -- and I can't find anything to confirm OR deny it -- that Cheney has specified that the debate must be held sitting down. I doubt that, but that's the rumour going round.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:38 PM

Cheney couldn't win a pissin' contest if he had the wind at his back..

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: kendall
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:13 AM

Never thought trial lawyers were good for much until now.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: TIA
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 07:25 AM

Funny you should mention trial lawyers. I predict that Cheney will say "trial lawyer" ohhhh, 26 times tonight. Maybe we should have a pool?

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 07:38 AM

Brucie, is his age all that important?

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 07:39 AM

Tia:

Maybe not 26 times but a lot... He'll blame everything, perhaps even the invasion of Iraq, on trial lawyers... You can bet he will try to tri the incresesd cost of health care to trrail lawyers... I hope he does 'cause Edwards probably can beat Cheney up purdy good on this one...

Actually, I was jus' funnin' last night about Cheney winning this one... Edwards will tear the "old fat guy" up. Or should. I just think it is amusing that the Repubs are so nieve as to think that Cheney's unflapable personality makes him a better debater. Might be the case if it weren't for the fact that Cheney is on the wrong side of almost every isssue.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:01 AM

It's important because the Bush was so flappable. Bothing to do with debating per se.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Willie-O
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:15 AM

Art is right by the way. It's not that Cheney is old, fat and white. He could be young thin and black and he'd still be a corrupt sleazebag.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:25 AM

Oh yeah, I left out the corrupt and sleazebag part. He's just such an icon of all that attracts derision about old fat white powermongers, is all. I guess I was being racist, huh? Sorry.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:45 AM

...actually, I was thinking of the part about the pissing contest....

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Genie
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:57 AM

peedeecee, yes, Cheney has specified that the debate must be held sitting down. It's being widely reported in the media now. That's part of what was negotiated between the Bush-Cheney lawyers and the Kerry-Edwards ones. Cheney's the one who wanted the seated debate.

Not to worry. I still think John Edwards can run circles around Darth ... er ... Dick Cheney even sitting down. §;-D

But Bobert's right, the right-wing media already "know" who's won this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:28 AM

A 'sitting-down' debate is nothing unusual if you remember.

Last night, a guy I never heard of before (I'm housesitting again, so I have access to cable right now), Joe Scarborough says he believes that Cheney will win this one. I haven't seen John Edwards speak but I'm hoping he will be forceful and effective. It's no wonder the administration distrusts him- he made a fortune proscecuting big business.

About Bush's first debate, he said that Bush 'didn't show up' and that his people will have to tell him that he has to do better or John Kerry will be the next president of the United States. (Nice ring to that.) I have no idea of Scarborough's politics.


I like what Time Magazine's Joe Klein had to say in the September 27 edition:

"And so there is one significant question left in this presidential election year: Can John Kerry hold George Bush accountable for this mess? My guess is, probably not. The Republicans, with a strong assist from Kerry, have successfully painted the Democrat as a flip-flopping incompetent when it comes to national security. It will be hard for Kerry to change that impression. In fact, he has only one chance remaining, in the presidential debates.

"And that won't be easy. I've never seen George Bush lose a debate. He is a brilliant minimalist. Kerry by contrast is all oratorical flab - although he did begin to show somes signs of life last week in a solid speech to the National Guard convention in which he blasted Bush's "fantasy of spin" about Iraq. It is a powerful fantasy, though. And it is easy to predict Bush's response to any Kerry criticism about Iraq: "My opponent is too pessimistic," the President will say. "See, what he doesn't understand is that the President of the United States has to stantd firm. We can't show weakness. And we won't on my watch." Unless Kerry can come off with a succinct, and lethal, response to those vaporous but compelling platitudes, he will lose the election."

Go, Kerry

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:35 AM

"See, what he doesn't understand is that the President of the United States has to stantd firm. We can't show weakness. And we won't on my watch."

He'd be a better PResident and a bette rhuman if he was willing to own up tothe weaknesses he is already showing -- including his arrogant obsession about being right all the time. It is one thing to stand firm, and quite another to stand hog-headed and ignorant.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:17 PM

My theory is that Cheney actually wants to lose. With the heart problems that he has had,his cardiologists have to be telling him that if he doesn't cut the stress, he's got a good chance of buying the farm--

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:00 PM

If that were the case, M.Ted, surely Cheney would have no trouble resigning from the ticket? With his health problems, he's had numbteen chances to quit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:21 PM

Unlike your Bush-Kerry hoax, Bobert, which was simply unbelievable (because however bad Kerry is, Bush is worse in spades) I was reconciled to the possibility that this one might be true. I wouldn't take a word from those descriptions of Cheney above, but he's also smart on his feet. Or his ass, as he has apparently decreed it will be.

Anyway, thank God it was a wind-up and all is still to play for. My guess and hope is that the slick lawyer will come across as far more voter friendly and generally in tune with the world than the slick wheeler-dealer.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:55 PM

TIA:   "I predict that Cheney will say "trial lawyer" ohhhh, 26 times tonight."

Quite probably. At least. But I'm pretty sure this can be countered effectively. I doubt that Cheney will introduce the subject, but I'm wondering how many times the word "Halliburton" is going to come up tonight. Maybe Edwards can induce Cheney to use the "f-word" again.

I heard some political pundit being interviewed on the radio yesterday going on and on about how one of the factors most important to American voters is "likability," and how it often trumps all kinds of other things, like intelligence, knowledge of issues, tendency to declare war at random, etc. He said that Bush had it made before the first debate, but he lost it with his frowns and "sucking lemons" expressions while Kerry was speaking. At the end of the debate, Kerry came out "more likeable." I though Kerry won on issues, and the fact that he didn't just keep repeating the same bumper-stickers over and over. If the pundit was right, it's a pretty damned sad commentary.

But if the pundit was right, Edwards should walk away with the trophy on this one. He's relatively young, handsome, articulate, has a pleasant personality, and he has the ideal "anchorman" hair—all things that matter most on television. Also, he is intelligent, and his experience as a crackerjack trial lawyer means he will be well-prepared, and if anyone throws him a curve, he'll be quick on his feet. Cheney is intelligent, quite articulate, and he, too, will have his arguments well prepared, but he tends to be gruff and argumentative (in a less than pleasant way), and where Bush tends to smirk a lot, Cheney is endowed with a permanent sneer. Not very high on the "likeability" index.

Helluva way to decide an election.

But I'm really looking forward to this one. It's gonna be a real good mud-wrestle.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: CapriUni
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 03:39 PM

There's something ironic about Cheney and the other Rebublicans who try to make trial lawyers in general, and Edwards in particular, into Boogeymen who will raise healthcare costs.

It's true that Edwards hasn't been in the senate long, but one piece of legislation that he did play a major part in shaping was an amendment to the prescription drug bill he cowrote (with a republican colleague), back in 2002. If the bill had passed into law, it would have severely limited the ability of brand-name drug companies to bring frivolous lawsuits against the makers of generics.

The brandname companies have gotten into the habit of bringing suits against the generic manufacterers for patant infringement, even though they know the suits have no legal merit, because each time they do, the courts have to put a two-year stay on the release of the generic drug.

BTW, the bill (S812) passed the senate 78-21, but the drug company lobbyists got to their representatives in the House, and there it died.

So, do I trust a trial lawyer, well-schooled in making sure laws are obeyed, over a corporate executive, well-schooled in playing with loopholes? You bet I do!

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:07 PM

He is a brilliant minimalist.

As he demonstrated in his military service days.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:23 PM

I'm looking forward to this one, as a really good debate on the issues.

However, I'm sure that Cheney will say something about his own "youth and sex appeal" in an attempt to deflate Edwards. Or maybe he'll rephrase Ronald Reagan's remark about "not taking advantage of his opponent's youth and inexperience."

I hope Edwards is aggressive but avoids looking mean-spirited. Cheney is really the adminstrator of the Bush Whitehouse and there are a whole lot of issues and decisions that he can be held responsible for. However, I'm not sure that Edwards is up to the job.

But maybe Cheney will blow his stack and tell him to "Go f**k himself!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:28 PM

I wonder how many heart attacks Cheney will have during the debates.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:33 PM

Let's hope he survives entirely healthy. Well up on my "worse nightmare" list is a Bush/McCain ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:40 PM

Actually, John Edwards is a scumbag trial lawyer who like most, are top notch bullshitters, posturers, and manipulators.

He has very little experience in government and it will probably show.

He is the worst case of pretty boy politics.

To say, like Guest, Amerigin "I wonder how many heart attacks Cheney will have during the debates" is about as childish and mean spiritied as can be. It's this type of Bush/Republican bashing that is what drives people away from wanting to be associated with the Democratic party.

It would be highly ironical if it was Edwards who had the heart attack, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 06:34 PM

With any luck, putz, you'll find yourself in need of one of those "scumbag trail lawyers" at some point in your life & the sooner the better.

And speaking of "top notch bullshitters, posturers, and manipulators"- do you recognize yourself ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 06:53 PM

Ah! Another brilliant political analyst heard from!

Actually, Edwards has more experience in federal government right now then Bush had when he assumed office. And as far as his being a "scumbag trial lawyer" is concerned, that implies that he is unethical. Do you have any documentation on this? Or a you just parroting what you heard on Fox News?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 06:54 PM

In regard to the demonizing of "trail lawyers," and the Republican complaint that consumer lawsuits are somehow harming job-creation and prosperity in general:

I heard a report last night on "Marketplace," the NPR business-news program, that SIX TIMES as many lawsuits in the US are filed by businesses than by private citizens ("consumers"). Who is really tying up the court system, and enriching lawyers at the expense of the general economy?

The whole specious argument is nothing more than an effort to discourage and trivialize the (relatively rare) efforts of powerless individuals to extract justice from powerful corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 07:05 PM

Let us not forget that more than any other individual (perhaps besides Karl Rove or Bush himself), Cheny was the manipulator who ram-rodded the call for war on Iraq through to realization. As such he is personally responsible for scores of human deaths, broken hearts, lost families, mangled limbs, ruined homes, and destroyed lives.

So if the Great Balancer sees fit to put a little heart failure in his Karma tonight, I will not be surprised. We are not talking about someone who spent much time trying to do good in the world.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:34 PM

For a change, I'd like to see someone in the White House who is smart--not necessarily an individual versed in a single aspect of human affairs. The USA has gone recently to having businessmen and lawyers become President, and it hasn't done the country (or world) a helluva lotta good. Time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Janie
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:45 PM

Now that's over, I'd call it a draw.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:55 PM

Just watched the vice-presidents debate. I thought Edwards was ahead on facts, and Cheney was ahead on confiidence & tactics. Somebody -- Maureen Dowd maybe -- said it was going to be Bambi meets Godzilla, and it was a lot like that.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM

Clint and Janie, I agree with you both, except I don't think it was "Bambi Meets Godzilla." I think it was more like Garfield Meets [what's the name of that hyper dog?]

I think Edwards is a decent guy, but occasionally, I'd like to smack him (smirk, smirk). I wish he'd spoken about himself a bit more than Kerry, and not been QUITE so gung-ho about repeating catch phrases. I'm easily bored, and those phrases are getting on my nerves...as well as that pointing-with-the-thumb thing both Kerry and Edwards do. Not to mention that "I have to say something about X, so I'll just stick it on the end of my response about Y, and maybe people won't notice how ungraceful it is.

Edwards' facts were better. I just wouldn't want to be stuck in an elevator with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:31 PM

Actually, Jeri, I can't think of too many attorney's I'd like to be stuck in an elevator with.... These folks don't do relax too well...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: CapriUni
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:10 PM

I have two words to say to Republicans who badmouth trial lawyers: "Abraham" and "Lincoln."

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Morticalia
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:40 PM

come on, cheney kicked ass against that pansy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:35 AM

I cringed when Edwards "broke the rules" twice and laughed it off.

I also turned off the t.v. in despair.

The American public generally "hate" lawyers and as much as I detest Cheney, I'm afraid that the public will favour a man who appears to be solid and all-powerful.

I just couldn't watch, I was afraid Cheney would eat Edwards alive. From all reports, Edwards is still alive and it sounds like Cheney shot himself in the foot by giving the wrong web address.

Yes! God is great!

d

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:32 AM

Sorry this isn't in blue clicky form...just got sent it by a friend.


CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11"

THE TRUTH: As the Washington Post reports today, Cheney has repeatedly insinuated and "strongly suggested" that Saddam Hussein was behind the attacks on September 11th.[2] And in its fact check column today, the Boston Globe says "Cheney has consistently asserted strong prewar links between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, even after the 9/11 Commission definitively concluded that there had not been a collaborative relationship between the two. In a radio interview in January 2004, Cheney said: 'I think there's overwhelming evidence that there was a connection between Al Qaeda and the Iraqi government.'"[3]
On December 9, 2001, Cheney went on "Meet the Press" to perpetuate the now entirely debunked theory that one of the 9/11 hijackers met with an Iraqi official.[4] He went back on a year ago to describe Iraq as part of ""the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11."[5]
Most recently, Cheney has claimed that Iraq harbored the terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi, and said Zarqawi "is an al Qaeda associate who took refuge in Baghdad, found sanctuary and safe harbor there before we ever launched into Iraq."[6] But yesterday, a report Cheney himself requested found that there is no conclusive evidence to support that claim. An administration official said, "The evidence is that Saddam never gave Zarqawi anything."[7]

CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "900,000 small businesses will be hit" by the Kerry-Edwards plan to roll back tax cuts for people in the top income bracket.

THE TRUTH: As the Washington Post writes this morning: "This is misleading. Under Cheney's definition, a small business is any taxpayer who includes some income from a small business investment, partnership, limited liability corporation or trust. By that definition, every partner at a huge accounting firm or at the largest law firm would represent small businesses. According to IRS data, a tiny fraction of small business "S-corporations" earn enough profits to be in the top two tax brackets. Most are in the bottom two brackets."[8]

CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "We have added 1.7 million jobs to the economy."

THE TRUTH: On November 2nd, George Bush will be the first president in 70 years to lose jobs. There will be about a million fewer jobs than there were when Bush took office -- and about 7 million fewer than Bush's own post-9/11 estimate. Cheney's using fuzzy math: 1.7 million jobs have been added, but millions more have been lost.[9]

CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight."

THE TRUTH: This one-liner was one of Cheney's best zingers of the night, but even it isn't true: Cheney and Edwards have met in public at least twice. They met when Edwards escorted Elizabeth Dole to be sworn in by Cheney as Senator and at the National Prayer Breakfast. At the Breakfast, he even called Edwards out by name, starting his remarks with the words, "Thank you very much. Congressman Watts, Senator Edwards, friends from across America and distinguished visitors to our country from all over the world, Lynne and I are honored to be with you all this morning."[10] You can actually watch video of the two of them shaking hands at www.democrats.org .


If Cheney's willing to flat-out lie about whether or not he's met John Edwards -- a rather objective question -- it's clear he won't be straight with the American people on more important issues.

When John Kerry won the first presidential debate, MoveOn members wrote tens of thousands of letters to the editors of the nation's newspapers. The letters served a critical role, solidifying the perception that Kerry was the clear winner and Bush was on defense. The post-debate conversation is just as important today, when it will shape the media's run up to the second Presidential debate Friday.

Can you take a few minutes to debunk one of the misleads above in a letter to the editor? Our tool makes it really easy to find a newspaper in your area and send in your thoughts.

Just go to:

http://www.moveonpac.org/lte/lte.html?zip=96816
As Edwards mentioned last night, Cheney's record is pretty scary: "When he was one of 435 members of the United States House, he was one of 10 to vote against Head Start, one of four to vote against banning plastic weapons that can pass through metal detectors. He voted against the Department of Education. He voted against funding for Meals on Wheels for seniors. He voted against a holiday for Martin Luther King. He voted against a resolution calling for the release of Nelson Mandela in South Africa." Let's make sure we vote him out on November 2nd.

Sincerely,

--Adam, Eli, Hannah, James, Laura, and the whole MoveOn PAC Team
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004

P.S. Another great source for the real facts behind Cheney¹s spin is the American Progress Action Fund¹s Progress Report. Their report dissects the debates today at:

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/

Footnotes:

1. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/05/opinion/polls/main647648.shtml
2. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6188565/
3. http://www.boston.com/news/politics/debates/articles/2004/10/06/fact_checking_the_debate/
4. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6188565/
5. Same as 4, above.
6. http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0406/21/asb.00.html
7. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/9836114.htm
8. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6188565/
9. http://www.boston.com/news/politics/debates/articles/2004/10/06/fact_checking_the_debate/
10. http://blog.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/archives/003153.html#003153

PAID FOR BY MOVEON PAC www.moveonpac.org
Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.


(OK, this is as partisan as you can get, but come on folks, show me the lies that Edwards told.)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:52 PM

And then, out comes the 1,000-page report by Charles Duelfer, head of the CIA's Iraq Survey Group weapons-hunting teams. And even immediately afterwards, Bush, in a campaign speech, still insisted that Saddam had WMDs.

Bush and Cheney are either in complete denial or they are monumental liars. No matter how you look at it, they are either fools or knaves.

Doug R and a few others have been awfully quiet lately. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:17 PM

well, dianavan, I have to say that the "don't mention his name" rule that Edwards broke was stupid and pointless. It was also arbitrary and non-binding.

It was NOT one of the rules that the candidates agreed to, it was just something the moderator decided to throw in for one question. So it was an arbitrary rule imposed by the moderator and non-binding on the parties in debate.

It was stupid and pointless because she was asking them to describe their running mates' positions "without mentioning their names." Huh? What is this, a game show? "Describe an elephant without using the words big, grey or animal." Now answer the next question without using the word "the." Why play dumb games like this?

An ultra-conservative columnist watching this (Jay Nordlinger of the National Review) actually gave Edwards points for breaking the rule and laughing it off. I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:28 PM

interesting that although Cheney (got his facts wrong) and suggested
people lookup factcheck.com (which got so many hits and redirected them to George Soros's anti-Bush site , but if one goes to factcheck.org it does covers fairly objectively various points that are misleading on both sides. But on the whole it doesnt support most of Cheneys point that the Haliburton charges are a smokescreen.
And takes about much of the GOP arguments on Kerry.

the one major result of the debate could be that giving out that website in fact shot the republicans in the foot.
(even now when one goes there, they are very slow, and must be getting millions of hits)

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:29 PM

Kinda like Alex Trebek disqualifying a contestant's correct response because it wasn't framed as a question. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:41 PM

But, hey, Dick really got Edwards with that "Until you walked out here tonight, I never met you', didn't he?

Problem is: another Cheney lie.

My greatest worry isn't that Bush and Cheney lie their asses off but that they do it without conscience meaning, ahhhhh, I'm beginning to think they are both pathological in that they no longer realize that they are doing it. Now that is very scarey...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 09:00 PM

Nerd - thanks for the clarification. If I had known, 'It was NOT one of the rules that the candidates agreed to, it was just something the moderator decided to throw in for one question. So it was an arbitrary rule imposed by the moderator and non-binding on the parties in debate' I would have thought about it differently and continued to watch.

diana

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:00 AM

A little clarification on the web-site issue.

Cheney did not in fact send people to the Soros anti-Bush site. Per the Washington Post, he sent them to a Web site which refers people to sellers of dictionaries and encyclopedias (and also owns such domain names as Lipbalm.com and Antarctica. com.)

According to a lawyer for the company that owns that site, the site was almost immediately overwhelmed---48,000 hits an hour, then 100 hits a second. So the company (Name Administration Inc.), "to avoid crashing and to exact revenge on Cheney for causing it such grief, decided to forward traffic to GeorgeSoros.com".

Poor Cheney.   Couldn't happen to a nicer reactionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheney Declared Winner over Edwards....
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 02:43 PM

"The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight."

I presume (I hope) that the Dems. are going to run that video clip of Cheney and Edwards shaking hands at the Elizabeth Dole swearing-in in one of their television ads. If the Reps. had something like that, they sure as hell wouldn't hesitate.

You should see some of the really disgusting out-of-context stuff that George Nethercutt, the Rep. candidate for Senate is running in an attempt to trash Patty Murray, the current Washington State Senator. It's so grossly misleading that even some Republicans are complaining about it.

Don Firth