Mandolin Pain

Subject: Help: Mandolin Pain
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 18 May 05 - 05:02 PM

Not to be confused with the Bruce Hornsby song. When I play my Octave Mandolin I experience a lot of pain in the first joint (the one closest to the palm ) on my left hand pinky. I've considerably lightened up the action on the instrument but when I make those long stretches and try to depress the string I really feel it. I'd really appreciate some advice, experience, stretching exercises, websites, whatever.
Thanks, vl

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 18 May 05 - 05:22 PM

Simple first question - is the finger in question making contact with the edge of the fingerboard or is it completely clear? Something as simple as a joint rubing might cause a problem.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: GUEST,vl
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:30 PM

No Geoff, I play with a slight arch in my palm and try to keep my fingers perpendicular to the fretboard and come down on the strings which seems to be more comfortable. The big problem seems to be when I reach four frets on the OM which was quite easy on the mandolin. I'm working on sliding up to notes more. Thanks, vl

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: mooman
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:58 PM

Van Lingle,

I have large hands and have been playing OM a long time so stretching isn't a problem. But changing your hand position just a little may help a lot. The typical classical guitar hand position seems to work well for people having conversion problems between mandolin and octave mandolin.

All the best,

moo

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:00 PM

Where's your thumb? do you wrap it right round the neck?

Gerry

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:13 PM

Gerry, I don't on the OM but I do on the guitar which I play as much or more. Out of necessity I seem to be gravitating more toward a classical position as Moo suggests because I'm also having problems with my thumb. Thanks guys, vl

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: Mooh
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:34 PM

When I started to play mandolin I used that "fingers perpendicular to the fingerboard" posture but quickly found that it hurt not at all to use the more fiddler like posture of the fingers at an angle to the fingerboard. Roughly two frets per finger.

On bouzouki it's a kinda hybrid hand posture for me...part guitar, part mandolin.

I don't do the thumb wrap except in rare cases.

If playing hurts, stop, it's not supposed to.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:40 PM

Hi Mooh thats what I was trying to say "do n't do the thumb wrap"

Gerry

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:57 PM

PM Aine -- she has been conquering the mando lately.


A

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 18 May 05 - 10:56 PM

Yeah Mooh, I've mostly approached the fretboard with a slightly diagonal hand position somewhat like a fiddler to make the long reaches but I'm finding it hurts too much to stretch the pinky from there. Perpendicular seems to be more comfortable now.vl

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: Mooh
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:08 AM

Well, it is quite possible to "swing" your hand, sometimes using the thumb as a pivot, to allow the fourth finger to reach a little further. That might be akin to a hybrid posture. A "position shift" works too, that is, shift the whole hand a fret or two.

Good idea to ask Aine, she was really going at the mandolin a while back.

Often times it's better to arrange the tune so that some surrounding notes are placed in the vicinity of the hard to reach notes (ie, on adjacent strings) so that a position shift can happen at an easier time. (For the uninitiated, any note on one string is found on the next lower pitched string seven frets higher.)

I've seen many players lock their left hand in the open position as if there were only 7 frets to play, but there's a risk in that. Hand position often affects the players ability to vary embellishments or improvise effectively. Demonstrating this isn't hard. Simply try playing a familiar tune without open notes (if you've always played it with open notes), and see how the repositioning of notes changes the way they are articulated and embellished.

To help train and condition the hand to do those reaches on the octave mandolin, shorten the fretboard with a capo to reduce the reach and gradually lengthen the fretboard until you can reach without the capo. It may take a few weeks, especially if your hands aren't as young and flexible as they used to be (like mine). I've used this trick with guitar and electric bass students with success.

Fwiw, neck width and depth seem to affect some players and not others, so general comfort may or may not be an issue. What sort of octave is it?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: breezy
Date: 19 May 05 - 10:01 AM

my wife feels a paining sensastion when I play the mandolin, she says its in her ears!

Dont overstretch, if it hurts, stop or permanent damage will occur.

Still, why do I have a trigger finger?

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: Grab
Date: 19 May 05 - 10:21 AM

A finger-stretching exercise that my guitar teacher gave me. Take one guitar. Take two fingers. Push guitar neck between fingers (the wide way). Repeat for each pair of fingers. Sadly this doesn't really work with mandolins, because the neck isn't wide enough - in that case, try anything that's got smooth, curved edges and is around 2" wide.

What's the pain like? If it's just an ache, it could just be that it's weak and not used to the strength needed. Repeated playing or use of a Gripmaster will cure that eventually, although there's no quick fix. If it's a shooting pain though, it may be some nerve-related grief or something to do with the joint itself.

FWIW, my hand is continually moving over a range of about 1/2" when I play octave mandolin to move from 1st to 4th fingers. You don't have to lock your hand in position if it's not comfortable to do so. The "classical guitar" hand position certainly improves your reach, albeit at the cost of some power in depressing the strings, which could be where your problem comes in - if you've relied all this time on mechanical advantage instead of finger strength then you'll now have to work to build up that strength.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 21 May 05 - 09:14 AM

Thanks all for the discussion and good advice. I'm going to check it all out.

Mooh, Mine is a Davy Stuart with a 22" scale and a fairly deep   neck profile. I'm considering having the neck narrowed a bit because my Froggy Bottom guitar has a fairly low profile and is very comfortable. The hybrid hand position seems to be what I'm moving toward as the perpendicular position puts less strain on the joint but it is harder to stretch from there and to hammer on and pull off (for me anyway) where as my old "fiddlers postion" is bad on the pinky joint.

Graham, I would describe the pain as a mild ache that is really exacebated when I do a long stretch with the pinky. I've been playing Guitar for more than 30 years now and have been relying on my large hands to make the big stretches but I'm working on doing more position shifiing as you guys suggest.
vl

Subject: RE: Mandolin Pain
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:55 AM

Just to let you all know things are getting better. I cut way back on my playing time but I'm gradually starting to play more. I've put a lot of the above recommendations into practice and that little hand shift, suggested by Grab, when going from the 1st to 4th fingers seems to work especially well. Thanks,vl