english and duet concertinas in traditio

Subject: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 05:01 AM

On a radio programme about Mrs Crotty, clare ANGLO concertina player,.
an interviewee, Jacqueline Maccarthy stated, that anyone that plays traditional music plays the anglo concertina, that there were two kinds of concertina; the anglo and the english. , and that the english was used just for shanties and song accompaniment.
   This is of course incorrect, there are three types of concertina Duet, English, and Anglo.
traditional tunes including irish, scottish. northumbrian and other English, is [or has been played on the english] by the following players Alistair Anderson, Sarah Graves, Simon Thoumire, Dick Miles, Madeline o Dowd[ all ireland champion] Tim Crehan,Dave Townsend ,Geoff Woof ,Tim Jennings, Peter Wood etc.
likewise the Anglo has been used successfully for songs and or shanties by the following Keith Kendrick [BOTH SYSTEMS],Brian Peters, Peter Bellamy, Roger Digby, John Kirkpatrick.Harry Scurfield .   
The duet has exponents who excel at both or either; Tim Laycock,Ralph Jordan,Geoff Lakeman, Gavin Atkin.
Anyone wishing to learn about playing traditional tunes on the English concertina would be advised to purchase concertina workshop Anderson Alistair[irish, shetland, northumbrian] available from the Button Box,I learnt from this tutor,. or Alternatively my own tutors,
   and or listen to all the above players.
No offence intended to Jacqueline Mccarthy who is a fine Anglo player but incorrectly informed .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 07:07 AM

The English concertina seems to be by far and away the most common in traditional music in NE England where I live and is used for playing all forms of traditional music. I seem to be unusual in these parts in playing the Anglo (well just learning really as I have only had mine for about 9 months)

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 01:42 PM

Good info Capn

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 02:54 PM

The English is used more commonly in the North East because it is more suited to replicating the huge leaps in Northumbrian pipe tunes, while the Anglo can produce the more staccato effect needed for southern English dance music. An important omission from the Cap'n's list of English players is Rob Harbron and of Anglo players, Will Duke. And the list of Duet players really should include Iris Bishop, is one of the finest song accompanists there is.

But as the Cap'n says, it is Keith Kendrick who gets top prize for being able to cope with two conflicting systems. I know no-one else who can do this. However, he is from Derbyshire and a Ram and is therefore completely mad.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:21 PM

I apologise to Rob,Iris and Will Duke,Its just impossible, to remember everyone, that I should.
3 SYSTEMS. all with disadvantages and advantages all equally capable of playing traditional tunes[ irish scottish english ]whatever]and song accompaniment. Its the player not the system. Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:28 PM

in any case, it's a relatively recent tradition.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Crane Driver
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:49 PM

To be precise, there's not just one Duet system, there's four different ones, each as distinct from one another as the Anglo is from the English. The McCann, or Wheatstone Duet is the most common, followed by the Crane, or Triumph system (duet systems seem to have two names each). Less common are the Hayden, or New system, and the Jeffries (aka the other one). Iris Bishop and Ralph Jordan play the McCann system, Tim Laycock plays a Crane. So, not three systems but six, each with their advantages, disadvantages and exponents. I've twice now been in a session where five out of the six were present, but never yet managed to catch all six at once. And yes, concertinas generally date from the second half of the nineteenth century, and only really began to be used widely in folk music with the revival in the 1960s (previously they were mainly used in chamber music or religious settings) so it's a relatively recent tradition.

If someone had only told me when I was starting out that I couldn't play trad dance music on a duet concertina, I might not have spent the last 35 years doing just that. I still wouldn't get worked up about it myself.

Andrew

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 08:09 PM

The postings above remind me of a couple of stories.

The first concerns a player once well known around Australia, especially in Sydney; I'll not name him to protect the innocent. This character played English and taught several people well known and respected in Australia as fondlers of the leather ferret. Invited to do an evening at the Fairfield (Melbourne) Anglers Hall he was asked about playing music on Anglos. "Anglo music is next to the sewer" said this very polite gentleman. Later in the evening, he invited those of us with concertinas to play a tune; I recall Geoff Wooff doing a splendid rendition of 'Spey in spate' (this was before he got into uillean pipes). When he saw my case he invited me to play but I declined.

Some years later (1982?) I saw him walking towards me at the Geelong Folk Festival; his eyes immediately noticed my two cases and I couldn't politely escape.
"What do you have there?" he asked, when it was pretty clear they contained concertinas. "Concertinas" I replied.
"Do you mind if I take a look?" he asked. "I don't think they'd interest you, xxxx" I commented.
"No, I'd like to see them!" he insisted.

So I opened the case with the Jeffries and handed it to him. He held it in his hands exactly as if he were at the Royal Melbourne Show, holding a cabbage and trying to judge whether it was worth 3rd or 4th prize; his hands never went into the straps and not a button was touched.

"It's a good one, isn't it?" he said, sounding as though it actually was a prize cabbage as he gave it back to me and walked away.

Years later I was recounting this story to a friend who played English and had recently returned from England. He described searching out a concertina band he'd read about as having played in a little rural village out in the English boondocks. He said he couldn't believe his luck when he found out that there was a player of English concer in a village close to the one he'd read the band was from. He arranged a visit.

He was welcomed by a kindly old gentleman who gave him cups of tea and talked about concertinas. When my mate asked him about the local concertina band his host insisted there was no such band and never had been one. After some exchanges on this my mate pulled out an old newspaper clipping naming the village and giving the facts about the concertina band. When the elderly gentleman read the clipping he stated (apparently quite matter-of-factly)
"Oh! Yes! There was a bunch of fellows who played Anglos. But there was never a concertina band!"

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:06 AM

I am currently finishing off English International 3CD collection featuring most of the best English system players from around the World.There are over thirty different players from early archive material to the present day, as it is so complex the full list of players will be announced nearer the release date ,expected to be late this year/ early next.I then complete this 3 System collection with Duet, which I have already made a tentative start on and the players already promising recordings are as follows
Damian Barber, Tim Laycock,Michael Hibbert,Nick Robertshaw,Dave Cornell,Dave Barnert, Jim Bayliss, Ralph Jordon,Iris Bishop, Jean Megly,archives will include Prof McCann (on cylinder), Alexander Prince and Perci Honri,I think you will agree that without really getting down to working on this collection we already have a fantastic line up.
In the New Year I will invite Duet players who are unknown to me to send me recordings for consideration.If you are unsure as to whether you reach the required standard just send me your recordings and I will let you know the situation in strict confidence.
Al

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:24 AM

First up, a message to Rowan.

It might interest you that it was Geoff Wooff who sold me my first Duet. We played together in South London in the early 70's, and reading your story about your encounter sounds like typical Geoff...
Probably one of the best English players I've ever met.
If you fall across him again, please give him my very best wishes, and it's his fault that I'm still struggling with the damned thing!!!

Second. Alan. I'm still working on stuff for my bits for the Duet album. Slightly awed to be in such exalted company (particularly Iris Bishop, who is a goddess IMHO).....and Jean
Megly....Can't wait to hear that. (Give him my best wishes, if you are in touch)

Will get in touch soon.

Sorry for the thread creep, but we Duet players are a quiet bunch, normally. (And slightly weird, it has to be said!)

Ralph Jordan

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:29 AM

Andrew.. Hello.
Just scrolled back and read your message.
What a hideous thought. A room full of Duet players with every system represented. The 4(6) horsemen of the Apocopalypse springs to mind!
Pip Pip old bean!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:49 AM

Are you looking for tunes or songs Alan?

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:58 AM

I was aware there wer four different types of arrangement of duet system, I used to play the HAyDEN myself[ In fact was the first person to record commercially with this system] and I also own a Crane. But they are all one system, bass left ,treble right,with different arrangement of buttons with same note in and out[ not sure about jefferies], so 3 systems.[with four different arrangement of buttons]
    I am not getting worked up , but just trying to correct mis information ,[theres enough of that, about concertinas].I would have thought Duet players would have been pleased to be recognised, rather than ignored.
last time I saw Damien Barber, he played English, Does he now play Duetas well.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 06:02 AM

There are more types of concertina than that, though not very commonly seen in the Britisn Isles - notably the Chemnitzer, in North America and the Bandoneon, in Argentina.

I've never seen any mention of either of those in the Mudcat, and would be cjrious to know if there are any people who play them out there inm Mudcatland.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 06:33 AM

Hallo Ralphie,plenty of time for practicing and I know you will do your usual professional job.
Tom, the collections are trying to represent all aspects of the instrument,tunes as solo or accompanied with small number of instruments or a band providing the concertina is slightly dominant,song accompaniment,concertina bands which include the instrument and all types of music from classical,jazz,ragtime,folk etc.As broad a range of music and styles as I can put together.
Dick, I understand from Graham that Damian Barber now plays duet,but I will double check,thanks.
A few names I forgot to mention were Gavin Atkin and Stuart Estell.
Niether English or Duet have ever been represented in such depth (or Anglo for that matter)so every care is being made to ensure these collections are as near to what everybody would like to hear and gives a good representation of playing as it was and as it is now.
Al

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 06:58 AM

McGrath, we had a long thread on Bandonéons not long ago that resulted in so many people going off on one about how to spell it, where to put the accent, how to pronounce it and which factory built the best ones that I was afraid to mention this instrument again. The only thing that wasn't touched on was how ethical (or not) it was to refer to the former Karlmarxstadt in Thuringia (where I visited the factory which used to make them but it had since switched to carpet manufacture) as Chemnitz. Perhaps this time . . .

Alan, Jon Boden plays Duet now but I haven't seen Damien with anything other than an English though I could be wrong as I haven't seen him for a while.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:02 AM

McGrath,
they have been mentioned occassionally.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:20 AM

Alan - if you mail me from here I can send you an mp3 for consideration. A secular hymn: two voices and duet, with unusual Victorian-style chord structure.

Contact

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:25 AM

But does anyone play them?

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:29 AM

Eliza Carthy's got one though she mostly plays a 1-row melodeon (when not fiddling, obviously). Some Poles down my street play them but you really don't want to hear it.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:34 AM

Here's a YouTube clipmof someeone playing a Chemnitzer Concertina anyway. And here's a Bandoneon.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:46 AM

Well, the late Pat Robson played a bandoneon.

I've never really thought of either of these instruments as concertinas, because they're built and sound like accordions. It's only really the button layout that's concertinary.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 05:54 PM

Strange my last posting has disappeared.
To repeat myself, Scan Tester used to play a Bandonion and the story goes that he only took it out to sell it.He sold it many times and when the new owner could not get on with it ,he purchased it back again, but at a lower price than he sold it for.He did this many times and thought it was a good source of income.
There was a poll on Bandonion and Chemnitzers and it was unanimously agreed that they were not Concertinas.I did not vote so please do not blame me.
If the original posting turns up,please ignore one of them.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 06:38 PM

The English is used more commonly in the North East because it is more suited to replicating the huge leaps in Northumbrian pipe tunes, while the Anglo can produce the more staccato effect needed for southern English dance music.

Two points.

1. I don't see why the English is better suited than the Anglo to the leaps in Northumbrian pipe tunes. There just doesn't seem to be a discernable logic behind this assertion.

2. Who says Northumbrian music doesn't use staccato. One feature of NSP that distinguishes them from all other bagpipes is that their closed chanter enables them to play staccato and Northumbrian pipers use this to great effect. Players of other instruments also use staccato. Accordionist David Oliver (Father of Joey of 422) is a great advocate of using staccato to stress the rhythm in dance music.

Its the player not the system. Dick Miles.

Well said Dick.

I suspect a more likely reason, though not the sole reason (these things are never simple) the English is popular here has more to do with one Alistair Anderson who has shown just what the instrument is capable of.

I tried both English and Anglo and while I struggled with the English, the Anglo just felt right so I went with it.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:00 PM

Not directly about concertinas, but just to round off the free-reed assemblage:

Has anyone heard Sam Hinton's "Master of the Solo Diatonic Harmonica"? In 2 CDs, the old master demonstrates just what one can do with a harmonica if one practices enough and happens to be a genius.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:14 PM

To enlarge on the second of Tootler's points, I seem to recall the sleeve notes of "The wild hills of Wannie" (it was nicked ages ago so I can't verify it) as describing the NSP music as peas being stripped from a pod, referring specifically to the staccato separation caused by the chanter design.

With reference to the popularity of the English in the 60s & 70s, I think I've posted elswhere the (possibly deluded) belief that the alleged superiority of the English was so entrenched in Britain that John Kirkpatrick included a Bach piece on 'Jump at the sun" to demonstrate the folly of such a belief.

Certainly, the notion that English was superior to Anglo was partly behind the behaviour of the elderly gentleman in my first story in this thread. Duets were not widely known in the Australian folk scene at the time, as Bob Bolton has also commented, although they were common enough in the Salvation Army out here. And Ralphie would probably know that Geoff Wooff brought several duets to Australia when he emigrated here, with his English. And his Northumbrian Small Pipes. Another thread mentioned Geoff now lives in France so yo'all will probably see him before I do.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:19 PM

Oh. I forgot to mention to Countess Richard that I play a bandoneon but it's so huge that I can't often take it with me when I go to festivals. Its keyboard is sufficiently similar to an anglo that I can get around it but its tone is definitely melodeon rather than concertina.

But I'd rather avoid further comments on taxonomy.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:52 AM

Thanks for the information on Damion Barber I am getting it checked out.
I agree with Dick it is the player not the system.
Listening to great players of all systems it would seem that apart from possibly certain classical pieces, all the instruments are capable of playing the same music.It is only the technique that alters.There are certain brilliant players like Alistair Anderson and John Kirkpatrick that specialise in certain types of music on English or Anglo and the music is connected because of their brilliance to those areas.If John had concentrated on North East music and Alistair, Morris, it may have been the other way round.
Geoff Wooff turns out to be an old friend of mine from about thirty five years ago when I helped to run a sing around at a little pub called The Black Horse at Nuthurst in Sussex , he was brilliant then and I did attempt to try and track him down on this site with our Australian members, but as I could not remember Geoffs name it was an impossible task.He has agreed to give me some recordings for English International so we will all have a chance to hear his playing.
It's a small World
Al

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:03 AM

Tootler

re English over Anglo for Northumbrian tunes. Alistair Anderson told me that. As I cannot play an Anglo myself I'm unable to verify it and so believed him. So did many other players. Perhaps it's more customary than practical.

I didn't say Northumbrian pipes didn't do staccato. What I referring to was massive interval leaps in the regional tunes. What I meant about staccato was that southern dance music style was more so than northern, with particular reference to Cotswold Morris, for which the Anglo is customary (since the pipe and tabor fell out of fashion), though obviously not exclusively so.

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:50 AM

apropos of nobody in particular.
Staccato can be acheieved by the use of finger attack on the English AND WRIST ATTACK ON THE BELLOWS I do this by giving an , extra push or pull in the direction I am already going, rather than reversing the bellows, similiar to a fiddle player doing a broken slur.
Finger attack can be used on any system of concertina , but tends to be overlooked by Anglos, because they have an inherently more rhythmical system [in out]to start with, but may be useful in more difficult keys[ b flat] where your scale may be going more smoothly.
A very good exercise for beginners on all systems[ and for anglo players in keys that require cross rowing] is to play scales as staccato as possible[ wuith finger attack] and as legato as possible.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: treewind
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:30 AM

"A very good exercise for beginners on all systems[ and for anglo players in keys that require cross rowing] is to play scales as staccato as possible[ wuith finger attack] and as legato as possible."

Very good advice. Applies to along-the row keys on an Anglo too, and to melodeons. And then when playing tunes, to make indicidual notes staccato or legato as the music dictates, whether or not that's the place when the instrument wnats to do it.

By the way, I don't think Andy Turner was mentioned on any of the earlier lists of good anglo players. One of my favourites in a solid English dance music style.

Anahata

Subject: RE: english and duet concertinas in traditio
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:39 AM

Andy Turner, yes indeed. And remarkable for having written a Northumbrian-style tune, The Stotty Cake Polka, which he plays on an Anglo. See him and Mat Green in a duo gig away from the Woodpeckers at Islington on 26 October.

Subject: RE: english & duet concertinas in traditionl music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:10 AM

"Staccato can be achieved by the use of finger attack on the English AND WRIST ATTACK ON THE BELLOWS ... A very good exercise for beginners on all systems[ and for anglo players in keys that require cross rowing] is to play scales as staccato as possible [with finger attack] and as legato as possible."

Also works for the Piano Accordion. Also highly recommended.