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11 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM (#2563822) Subject: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce For those claiming the right to demand Israeli actions because of US support for Israel: Saudi Arabia: Only mosques allowed Posted 22h 16m ago GENEVA (AP) — A Saudi Arabian official says mosques can be the only places of worship in his country, rejecting pressure to change heavy restrictions on religions besides Islam. Saudi Arabia, home to Islam's holiest sites, implements a strict version of Islamic law. It told a United Nations meeting that the kingdom allows other religions in private. But the vice president of the Saudi human rights commission said Friday that establishing houses of worship for non-Islamic religions was too sensitive an issue. Zaid Al-Hussain tells the U.N. Human Rights Council in Geneva that there could be no debate. Other countries have urged Saudi Arabia to abolish laws that breach basic human rights such as freedom from discrimination on the basis of religion or belief. Oh, yeah- If they are not Jews, we can't tell them what to do. |
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11 Feb 09 - 12:03 PM (#2563931) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC Ok, tell us. How much is the US supporting Saudi Arabia? |
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11 Feb 09 - 12:09 PM (#2563941) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC (One would think the thread originator would want to know the facts before making accusations.) |
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11 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM (#2564054) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce (one would think that a person who cared about the answer would wait to get a reply before making accusations, as well) WHatever I say will be argued over ( from past experience) so go find your own answer. |
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11 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM (#2564061) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC I'm not the one who made an accusation against people without having the facts to back it up. |
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11 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM (#2564064) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce Actually, CarolC, you have, multiple times. But the article I posted makes no accusation- it states a fact. "An estimated 240,000 Palestinians are living in Saudi Arabia. They are not allowed to hold or even apply for Saudi citizenship, because of Arab League instructions barring the Arab states from granting them citizenship in order "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland". Palestinians are the sole foreign group that cannot benefit from a 2004 law passed by Saudi Arabia's Council of Ministers, which entitles expatriates of all nationalities who have resided in the kingdom for ten years to apply for citizenship with priority being given to holders of degrees in various scientific fields.[42] The Articles 12.4 and 14.1 of the Executive Regulation of Saudi Citizenship System can be interpreted as requiring applicants to be muslim.[43]" |
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11 Feb 09 - 01:43 PM (#2564072) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce Saudi Arabia Ethnic groups: Arab 90%, Afro-Asian 10% Religions: Muslim 100% Exports - partners: US 17.1%, Japan 16.3%, South Korea 9.7%, China 8.1%, Taiwan 4.7%, Singapore 4% (2007) Imports - partners: US 12.6%, China 9.4%, Germany 8.8%, Japan 8.1%, Italy 5%, South Korea 4.9%, UK 4.5% (2007) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Israel Ethnic groups: Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004) Religions: Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2004) Exports - partners: US 35%, Belgium 7.5%, Hong Kong 5.8% (2007) Imports - partners: US 13.9%, Belgium 7.9%, Germany 6.2%, China 6.1%, Switzerland 5.1%, UK 4.7%, Italy 4.1% (2007) |
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11 Feb 09 - 01:54 PM (#2564087) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC The accusation was made by the thread originator who said that some people are holding Jews to a different standard than they hold people like the Saudis. What financial support are the taxpayers of the US providing the government of Saudi Arabia? If no answer is forthcoming, I think we can say that no US taxpayer money is being provided to the government of Saudi Arabia. And if that's the case, then it is not a double standard for us to say that our money shouldn't be given to Israel unless it complies with international and humanitarian law. |
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11 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM (#2564095) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce " And if that's the case, then it is not a double standard for us to say that our money shouldn't be given to Israel unless it complies with international and humanitarian law. " Yet you were given the figures about US taxpayer support of other countries, and made no such claim about them...ie, Palestinians et al. MY claim "some people are holding Jews to a different standard than they hold people like the Saudis." is true from examination of this and other threads. |
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11 Feb 09 - 02:10 PM (#2564109) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC No, actually, I said that I don't think we should provide any taxpayer support for any government that discriminates. Don't lie about what I've said. |
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11 Feb 09 - 02:16 PM (#2564122) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce So we should cut off all funding to Gaza. |
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11 Feb 09 - 02:17 PM (#2564126) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC Taxpayer funding, but only if we also cut off all taxpayer funding to Israel. |
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11 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM (#2564142) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce AND all other nations that do not comply with our laws. So, NO MORE UN FUNDING! I can live with that. |
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11 Feb 09 - 02:41 PM (#2564153) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: gnu Subjugating the poor? Denying freedom? I say we nuke em until they glow. |
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11 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM (#2564179) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC We? The country of the person making that suggestion doesn't have any nukes. We'll decide what to do with our own nukes ourselves, thanks. |
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11 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM (#2564182) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC Oops. I didn't pick up on the irony in the post I was responding to. Sorry about that. |
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11 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM (#2564186) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce "Five are considered to be "nuclear weapons states", an internationally recognized status conferred by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). In order of acquisition of nuclear weapons these are: the United States, Russia (successor state to the Soviet Union), the United Kingdom, France, and China. Since the NPT entered into force in 1970, three states that were not parties to the Treaty have conducted nuclear tests, namely India, Pakistan, and North Korea. North Korea had been a party to the NPT but withdrew in 2003. Israel is also widely believed to have nuclear weapons, though it has refused to confirm or deny this.[1] The status of these nations is not formally recognized by international bodies as none of them are currently parties to the NPT. South Africa has the unique status of a nation which developed nuclear weapons but has since disassembled its arsenal before joining the NPT." |
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11 Feb 09 - 03:16 PM (#2564196) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: gnu Irony, yes. However, now that you mention it, WE, the Royal WE, got lots. More than you, but that's a secret, so don't tell anyone. Our lips are seals. |
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11 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM (#2564198) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce |
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11 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM (#2564199) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC LOL |
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11 Feb 09 - 04:34 PM (#2564287) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: robomatic I would reckon that with every gallon of gas we burn we (US) are supporting Saudi Arabia. That's why I didn't drag six foot flags through the air from flagpoles in my pickup bed like a lot of folks I saw after 9-11. Seemed like too much hair of the dog that bombed me! |
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11 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM (#2564303) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC We buy most of our gas at Citgo, so we're mostly supporting Venezuela and not Saudi Arabia. |
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11 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM (#2564320) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: pdq "We buy most of our gas at Citgo, so we're mostly supporting Venezuela and not Saudi Arabia." You personally or the people of this country? |
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11 Feb 09 - 05:42 PM (#2564348) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Q (Frank Staplin) This has been gone over before. The petroleum imported into the United States comes from these sources (thousands of barrels per day, Nov. 2008): Canada- 2028 crude, 2532 total including refined. Saudi Arabia 1487, 1514 total Mexico 1296, 1406 Venezuela 1080, 1236 Nigeria 775, 827 Iraq 476, 476 Angola 450, 450 Algeria 381, 677 (smaller quantities from other sources) Oil refined in refineries owned by any one company comes from whatever sources are convenient to their location, and what is sold at particular service stations depends upon what is available from refineries in that area- e. g. I buy at a Shell service station, but the gasoline comes from a refinery operated by Exxon-Mobil. To say that one's purchases benefit one particular country is nonsense. Venezuelan crude may be strongly represented at stations near where the crude is landed, but not necessarily. Once petroleum enters the pipeline system, its destination depends on contracts and not source. Incidentally, more and more petroleum is being exported from the source country in the refined state, as super refineries are constructed near the source. |
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11 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM (#2564376) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC JtS and I buy most of our gas from Citgo. From their "about" page... http://www.citgo.com/AboutCITGO.jsp "Based in Houston, Texas, CITGO is a refiner and marketer of transportation fuels, lubricants, petrochemicals and other industrial products. In addition to these products, there's probably a CITGO in your neighborhood, a convenient place to fill up with gas and grab a quick snack. The company is owned by PDV America, Inc., an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A., the national oil company of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. Since 1985, CITGO has sold its various products through independent marketers. Our relationship with these people is really what makes CITGO different from other petroleum companies." |
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11 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM (#2564389) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Bill D "Oh, yeah- If they are not Jews, we can't tell them what to do." You are confusing the idea of "...tell them what to do" with "supporting what they do". And the types of issues involving religious tolerance is a bit different from various international political concerns. |
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11 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM (#2564420) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: gnu Bill D... your quote of "Oh, yeah- If they are not Jews, we can't tell them what to do." Please... for an old man of limited abilities.... could you cite where the quote came from, please? |
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11 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM (#2564432) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Bill D from the 1st post in the thread... It is the standard argument form of the thread originator. |
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11 Feb 09 - 07:24 PM (#2564435) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Bill D specifically, the form is, "you allow from 'them' things you wouldn't tolerate from we Jews/Republicans/conservatives/poets " ... whatever the context is. |
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12 Feb 09 - 06:53 AM (#2564763) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce BillD, Only when I notice that people here DO use a double ( or greater) standard, and require of those they oppose what they object to being required of those they support. |
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12 Feb 09 - 07:56 AM (#2564798) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: artbrooks Since the question was asked...Saudi Arabia gets no direct aid from the US - in the sense of "here is money, spend it as you want". Neither does Israel. Both get substantial "credits" for military purchases. I really don't see what Saudi suppression of other religions has to do with Israel or the Jews, which are hardly the same thing. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:35 AM (#2564907) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC In this particular case, though (as in many cases), there was no double standard. The thread originator fabricated on in his own mind. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM (#2564910) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: beardedbruce Hardly. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM (#2564912) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC I have yet to see evidence of a double standard in this case. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM (#2564923) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Stu "Oh, yeah- If they are not Jews, we can't tell them what to do." Oh yeah - so that must be why the US has spent so much money bombing the shit out of Iraq and Afghanistan for the best part of this decade. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:57 AM (#2564936) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC On the subject of direct aid of a non-military nature, prior to 2008, Israel received hundreds of millions of dollars of economic grants (non military grants) from the US each year, and it still receives millions of dollars in aid from US taxpayers for the resettlement of people from other countries to Israel, as well as other aid. http://www.wrmea.com/archives/November_2008/0811010.html |
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12 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM (#2564952) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Bill D I at least explained why I did not consider THIS to be a double standard. "You are confusing the idea of "...tell them what to do" with "supporting what they do". And the types of issues involving religious tolerance is a bit different from various international political concerns." When I dispute certain arguments or claims, it is 'almost' always on the basis of weak argument argument forms, not based on whether or not 'something happened'. It is quite possible, as beardedbruce and Carol C do regularly, to quote 'facts' and post articles & links back & forth endlessly, without much clarification of the basic premises that are being assumed by each side. The Middle East situation has been SO complex for SO long, that both sides have plenty of ammunition to accuse each other of many transgressions.....just as it was with Northern Ireland and the Baltic states before. There is **NO WAY** the USA could possibly walk a line that is fair & reasonable to both Israel & the Saudis (or the Palestinians)without offending both/all of them! Thus, political & economic expediency get involved, and BOTH sides get upset at different times. I am quite aware that the Saudis' attitude toward religious tolerance is outdated & rigid...but that, Bruce, doesn't 'prove' or imply exactly what you suggest it does. |
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12 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM (#2565038) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: robomatic CarolC and Q: I don't think there's anything inaccurate about what you're saying, but you are overlooking that unnecessary use of fuel raises prices and makes more money for the Saudis. This has side issues which are not bad, (such as it is good for us Alaskans). But the operative word is fungible. You can't 'not' buy from Saudi Arabia because they supply an equivalent gallon to someone who didn't buy it from whom you bought it. |
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12 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM (#2565051) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Robomatic- "unnecessary use of fuel" We here in Canada encourage maximum use of petroleum because it makes money for Canadians. Our fellow producers in Mexico do the same. You and your ilk take food from Canadian (and Mexican) mouths. Definitely anti-Canadian (and anti-Mexican as well). (He, he, he) |
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12 Feb 09 - 12:52 PM (#2565057) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: robomatic Hey Q: You Southerners like to fish our fish- ilk, indeed! heh heh |
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12 Feb 09 - 01:13 PM (#2565084) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Sandy Mc Lean There are two stages of government in Saudi Arabia and each piss in the pot of the other. First there is the royal family that control international relations, sell the oil and keep the people's money for themselves. They are some of the richest people on earth. Secondly there is the religious leaders who control the population using Sharia Law to trample any hint of human rights under their feet. They rule very much as the Taliban did in Afghanistan. The royals agree to let the mullahs subjugate the people and the mullahs allow the royals to confiscate the national wealth. The USA buys a lot of oil there and the big oil companies are entrenched in that system of corruption. What I find strange is that the 911 terrorists were Saudis but the USA bombs the hell out of Iraq in retalliation. Canada as well is at war in Afghanistan, and we say that we want to restore human rights and dignity to the population. We as a government also ignore the similar violations in Saudi Arabia. At this time there are two Canadian youths in Saudi jails waiting beheading, for defending themselves. The Canadian government doesn't have the balls to demand their immidiate release! |
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12 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM (#2565213) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: M.Ted A minor point here, Robomatic, but in actuality, crude oil is not, strictly speaking, fungible--there are, of course, certain kinds of crude that are, but crudes from Saudi Arabia and West Texas are not--because of the sulfur content, some US oil refineries can only refine oil from certain places, meaning that they don't and can't use Saudi oil, which tends to be much more sulfurous-- |
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12 Feb 09 - 03:22 PM (#2565230) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: GUEST,jts The United States does not tell Israel what to do. Israel leads most US federal politicians around by a choke collar. The Saudis are more subtle. But their wealth buys influence. |
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12 Feb 09 - 04:12 PM (#2565278) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Adding a bit to M.Ted- Brent blend (low sulfur) generally commands a $4 premium over Saudi (higher sulfur) crudes (In these volatile times that price figure could be off). This may be one of the reasons that the Saudis and their partners are building super refineries and exporting more and more refined petroleum. By refining before shipping, they may be able to command a higher overall profit. Don't know the current market demand for sulfur. Canada, the Middle East and Russia are the largest suppliers. |
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12 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM (#2565347) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: M.Ted More than you want to know, perhaps, but most Saudi oil is contracted, rather than sold on the spot market. Another reason that the Saudis are refining is that it allows them to sell to countries that do not have oil refining capabilities-- Oil refining does two things that will have a significant impact on the Saudis--it creates an increased demand for skilled labor, and it increases the overhead costs of oil production significantly. This means that their population of immigrant workers will jump, that more of the oil money will have to be reinvested and expended in the oil business itself, and that fluctuations in the price of oil will have ever greater impact on the fabric of their society than it does now. It will be worth watching. |
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12 Feb 09 - 09:56 PM (#2565554) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: Q (Frank Staplin) The difficulty in getting new refineries approved in the U. S. is another reason for the large new Saudi refineries and export of refined product. There are four; Sasref operated jointly with Royal Dutch Shell, Samref with Exxon-Mobil, and a new one at Yanbu (partner not yet announced). The Rabigh refinery is being enlarged at a cost of $8 billion, with Sumitomo of Japan as the partner. Upgrading at Ras Tanura for $1.3 billion is rumored to be even further increased. (Saudi Aramco also maintains 1.6 million bbl/day refining capacity overseas and increase in China is on the way). Most of this from Saudi Refinery Investments The economic downturn has put a damper on investment into so-called green energy sources; petroleum will remain a major energy source for the next twenty years. The downturn has also stopped new investment in Canada's oil sands, much to the benefit of the environment there. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:09 PM (#2565566) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arab? From: CarolC I don't know why anyone would assume that I am overlooking the fact that unnecessary use of fuel raises prices and makes more money for the Saudis. I have not divulged in this thread how much fuel I use. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:14 PM (#2565575) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: CarolC I find that some of the people who focus the most on how other people form their arguments are often the most guilty of having weak argument forms themselves. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:24 PM (#2565584) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Q (Frank Staplin) SARCO stock (Saudi Arabia Refineries), currently depressed because of the low oil price, may be a good investment at this time. If one can get it. |
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12 Feb 09 - 10:27 PM (#2565588) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Q (Frank Staplin) ? Increased oil prices makes more money for all producers, not just the Saudis and their partners. |
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13 Feb 09 - 04:10 PM (#2566230) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Stringsinger Saudi Arabia is a theocracy. There is a special building in Washington to house the Saudi interests. Micheal Moore covered this in Fahrenheit 911. It is not open to the public. As long as we (US) continue to use fossil-based fuel we will support Saudi Arabia. Please don't tell us about democratic values in Saudi Arabia and how they are so charitable with religions and the rights of women. Why is it that a country that purports to be democratic excuses the human rights in a theocratic country? Could it be about money and greed? Israel is another theocracy. Stringsinger |
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13 Feb 09 - 04:28 PM (#2566248) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Bill D If there is a difference of opinion about valid argument forms, it requires more than just a statement of disagreement to resolve it. I do know where to get the technical explanations, but it takes a LOT of typing to take apart compound/complex arguments and demonstrate, point by point, why it is flawed. I am not usually making claims attacking or defending various events/beliefs/theories. I merely attempt to show how many of those claims are based on embedded assumptions that are not easily proven, and are largely personal attitudes....on **ALL** sides. I'm an equal opportunity skeptic. |
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13 Feb 09 - 08:16 PM (#2566425) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Looking at foreign trade deficits, China looms over Saudi Arabia, 6 to 1. From these figures, one might get the idea that the U. S. supports the world, but domestic trade is much larger. 2008 U. S. Gov't figures: China -266332 million Canada - 74000 million Japan - 72669 million Mexico - 64376 million Germany - 42820 million S. Arabia - 42338 million France - 14810 million S. Korea - 13268 million India - 7095 million UK - 4844 million And here is one where the U. S. is in a plus position: Brazil + 2451 million Read 'em and weep! |
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13 Feb 09 - 08:19 PM (#2566428) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Deficit figures above from the U. S. government: |
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13 Feb 09 - 08:31 PM (#2566437) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: pdq "Deficit figures above from the U. S. government." Yes, but that is how we keep the rest of the world economy humming. Also prevents these countries from acting hostile. Call it buying peace and prosparity if you like, but it is the only path to that goal that seems to work. |
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14 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM (#2566895) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: CarolC All I'm saying is, people in glass houses (or who don't recognize their own weak argument forms)... |
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14 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM (#2566908) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Bill D Ok, you may have the last word. |
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14 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM (#2566911) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: pdq You mean Zzyzx? |
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14 Feb 09 - 03:54 PM (#2566956) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: Bill D I guess that beats zyzzogeton...so... *shrug* |
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14 Feb 09 - 04:31 PM (#2566986) Subject: RE: BS: How much is US supporting Saudi Arabia? From: pdq Zzyzx is a real place. It is a research station near Death Valley, CA. Even has Zzyzx Road leading up to the station and a nice exit sign on the interstate. It was named by a man at the station and was inspired by the man's wife. He said "I just wanted to have the last word". |